# Beeminder and Trello - Max Staleness **URL:** \ **Category:** uncategorized\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445 "2013-08-24T22:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reto\_Stamm](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/reto_stamm/32/693_2.png) [@Reto\_Stamm](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Reto_Stamm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/1 "2013-08-24T22:07:28Z")
Hi guys, I finally switched to Trello for my todo lists, and I must say it works pretty good. I’d like one more feature: I’d like to have a max staleness feature. I have a High Priority Trello List. I would like to touch each item on this list at least once in x days, so that I make a bit of progress on it regularly. So what I’d like to have is a way to mind the age of the oldest card in a list. I envision this: Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and make sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or something, at which point the next card is the oldest card. On a larger level, this could be a way to force a weekly or monthly review when applied to the entire board. Does anyone have a solution for this problem already? Reto ---
**Author:** ![Noah\_Wilde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/noah_wilde/32/691_2.png) [@Noah\_Wilde](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Noah_Wilde)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/2 "2013-08-24T22:20:16Z")
I have toyed with Beeminding Trello. I’ve used a number of metrics, like this one. Also, rate of cards closed, etc, etc. Ultimately, each time, I found myself optimising for the metric in hand. For example, only working on easy cards. Perhaps in your instance, you will find yourself doing similar work-avoidance things, just to keep the numbers up. In the end, I settled on Beeminding _time I spend using Trello productively_, which is working out great. On 24 August 2013 23:07, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > Hi guys, > > I finally switched to Trello for my todo lists, and I must say it works > pretty good. > > I’d like one more feature: I’d like to have a max staleness feature. > > I have a High Priority Trello List. I would like to touch each item on > this list at least once in x days, so that I make a bit of progress on it > regularly. > So what I’d like to have is a way to mind the age of the oldest card in a > list. > > I envision this: > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and > make sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line > and cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > something, at which point the next card is the oldest card. > > On a larger level, this could be a way to force a weekly or monthly review > when applied to the entire board. > > Does anyone have a solution for this problem already? > > Reto > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). ---
**Author:** ![dreev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/dreev/32/4311_2.png) [@dreev](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/dreev)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/3 "2013-08-26T01:46:14Z")
Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal with a flat road at, say, 30. Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > **[Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](https://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more)** > > Power-ups are board-level features that you can enable to provide extra functionality: calendars, card aging, and voting. > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and make > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or something, at > which point the next card is the oldest card. – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Reto\_Stamm](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/reto_stamm/32/693_2.png) [@Reto\_Stamm](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Reto_Stamm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/4 "2013-08-26T04:55:48Z")
Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time. I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be fine. A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is todays datapoint. Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 Reto On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com)wrote: > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal > with a flat road at, say, 30. > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and > > make > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > something, at > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > – > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). ---
**Author:** ![Pankaj\_More](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pankaj\_More](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Pankaj_More)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/5 "2013-08-26T05:10:19Z")
@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am unable to find it on google. On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find > that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve > got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for > meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time. > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. > > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). > An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be > fine. > A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since goal > started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is > todays datapoint. > > Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the beeminder > items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. > > Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 > > Reto > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com)wrote: > > > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal > > with a flat road at, say, 30. > > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. > > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and > > > make > > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and > > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > > something, at > > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > > > – > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). ---
**Author:** ![dreev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/dreev/32/4311_2.png) [@dreev](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/dreev)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/6 "2013-08-26T05:17:07Z")
> I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find that > flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve got > left until failure Au contraire! We finally fixed that, at least for Set-A-Limit. The reported safety buffer for a Set-A-Limit goal now assumes Pessimistic Presumptive Reports (even if you don’t actually have those on, since the alternative, as you’ve noticed, is an entirely meaningless safety buffer). > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. GmailZero with Zeno polling is working well for me these days. Any goal that can fail without warning we should treat as a critical Beeminder failure. Our name doesn’t rhyme with “reminder” for nothing! > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). That much I got, but I didn’t understand how you were turning that into like a Do More goal. The flat Set-A-Limit version still seems more natural to me and I don’t think it has the old disadvantages any more, other than obviating the excuse to use the word “beepoch”. – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Reto\_Stamm](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/reto_stamm/32/693_2.png) [@Reto\_Stamm](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Reto_Stamm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/7 "2013-08-26T05:26:56Z")
It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out there, and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them. So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got to work on it to make it move further back. That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding 🙂 Reto On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More [pankajm@iitk.ac.in](mailto:pankajm@iitk.ac.in) wrote: > @Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am > unable to find it on google. > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > > > Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find > > that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve > > got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for > > meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time. > > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. > > > > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). > > An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be > > fine. > > A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since > > goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is > > todays datapoint. > > > > Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the > > beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. > > > > Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 > > > > Reto > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com)wrote: > > > > > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > > > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > > > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal > > > with a flat road at, say, 30. > > > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > > > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > > > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. > > > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > > > > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > > > > > > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > > > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. > > > > and make > > > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and > > > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > > > something, at > > > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > > > > > – > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > – > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). ---
**Author:** ![Reto\_Stamm](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/reto_stamm/32/693_2.png) [@Reto\_Stamm](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Reto_Stamm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/8 "2013-08-26T05:30:52Z")
GmailZero with Zeno polling is working well for me these days. Any > goal that can fail without warning we should treat as a critical > Beeminder failure. Our name doesn’t rhyme with “reminder” for nothing! I’d like to ward things off a day early, if possible. But yes, this should work, most days. > That much I got, but I didn’t understand how you were turning that into like a Do More goal. The flat Set-A-Limit version still seems > more natural to me and I don’t think it has the old disadvantages any > more, other than obviating the excuse to use the word “beepoch”. I’ll put together a beepoch staleness example over the next few days. ---
**Author:** ![dreev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/dreev/32/4311_2.png) [@dreev](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/dreev)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/9 "2013-08-26T05:41:38Z")
At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it, I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals. Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30 beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having 30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into the green. Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst case though. I should try probably try it! On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out there, > and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them. > So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got > to work on it to make it move further back. > > That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding 🙂 > > Reto > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More [pankajm@iitk.ac.in](mailto:pankajm@iitk.ac.in) wrote: > > > @Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am > > unable to find it on google. > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > > > > > Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find > > > that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve > > > got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for > > > meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time. > > > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > > > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. > > > > > > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). > > > An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be > > > fine. > > > A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since > > > goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is > > > todays datapoint. > > > > > > Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the > > > beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. > > > > > > Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 > > > > > > Reto > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com) > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > > > > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > > > > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal > > > > with a flat road at, say, 30. > > > > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > > > > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > > > > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. > > > > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > > > > > > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > > > > > > > > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > > > > > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. > > > > > and make > > > > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line > > > > > and > > > > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > > > > something, at > > > > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > > > > > > > – > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > – > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > – > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Bethany\_M\_Soule](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/bethany_m_soule/32/666_2.png) [@Bethany\_M\_Soule](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Bethany_M_Soule)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/10 "2013-08-26T19:09:23Z")
it seems that it mitigates some of the risk of skating the edge, however. if your nightly beemergency is to get 30 other goals back into the green so you don’t lose the one meta goal, if you ever _really_ feel like screwing off, or have some other urgent sort of thing come up, you pay one penalty on the meta goal, but are still safe from those 30 other dooms. I guess at the very very least it is super considerate to us, because if you have a legitimate sos-invoking derailment we only have one goal to rerail, not 30! Bethany On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com) wrote: > At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it, > I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the > akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a > beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals. > Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30 > beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one > beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having > 30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into > the green. > > Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst > case though. I should try probably try it! > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > > > It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out there, > > and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them. > > So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got > > to work on it to make it move further back. > > > > That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding 🙂 > > > > Reto > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More [pankajm@iitk.ac.in](mailto:pankajm@iitk.ac.in) wrote: > > > > > @Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am > > > unable to find it on google. > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > > > > > > > Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find > > > > that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve > > > > got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for > > > > meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time. > > > > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > > > > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. > > > > > > > > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). > > > > An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be > > > > fine. > > > > A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since > > > > goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is > > > > todays datapoint. > > > > > > > > Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the > > > > beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. > > > > > > > > Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 > > > > > > > > Reto > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com) > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > > > > > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > > > > > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal > > > > > with a flat road at, say, 30. > > > > > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > > > > > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > > > > > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old. > > > > > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > > > > > > > > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > > > > > > > > > > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > > > > > > > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. > > > > > > and make > > > > > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line > > > > > > and > > > > > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > > > > > something, at > > > > > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > > an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > > > – > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > – > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > – > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). – > **[Bethaknee is me](https://bsoule.com)** > > Bethany is a Master of computer science by authority of Columbia University. She is passionate about autonomous locomotion, self quantification, fiber arts, mythologies, and of course codecodecode. She lives in the verdant Pacific Northwest. [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – Reminders with a sting ---
**Author:** ![Reto\_Stamm](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/reto_stamm/32/693_2.png) [@Reto\_Stamm](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Reto_Stamm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminder-and-trello-max-staleness/1445/11 "2013-08-26T19:35:46Z")
Let me clarify - there is no representation of this meta goal in a chart or anything. It’s not actually a goal, it is just a meta behavior to keep things from piling up all at once. I am trying to look ahead enough to avoid having 30 emergency days all at once. All I am doing is look at the list in order of likely failure, and push back the most urgent, and look ahead a bit. I suppose everyone is doing this, really, I just called it meta minding. I can still fail multiple things, and the meta goal (because it does not exist as a contract) never really fails. Reto On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Bethany M. Soule [bsoule@beeminder.com](mailto:bsoule@beeminder.com)wrote: > it seems that it mitigates some of the risk of skating the edge, > however. if your nightly beemergency is to get 30 other goals back > into the green so you don’t lose the one meta goal, if you ever > _really_ feel like screwing off, or have some other urgent sort of > thing come up, you pay one penalty on the meta goal, but are still > safe from those 30 other dooms. I guess at the very very least it is > super considerate to us, because if you have a legitimate sos-invoking > derailment we only have one goal to rerail, not 30! > > Bethany > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com) > wrote: > > > At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it, > > I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the > > akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a > > beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals. > > Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30 > > beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one > > beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having > > 30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into > > the green. > > > > Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst > > case though. I should try probably try it! > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) wrote: > > > > > It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out > > > there, > > > and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them. > > > So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I > > > got > > > to work on it to make it move further back. > > > > > > That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding 🙂 > > > > > > Reto > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More [pankajm@iitk.ac.in](mailto:pankajm@iitk.ac.in) > > > wrote: > > > > > > > @Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am > > > > unable to find it on google. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm [reto@retostamm.com](mailto:reto@retostamm.com) > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find > > > > > that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days > > > > > I’ve > > > > > got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for > > > > > meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of > > > > > time. > > > > > I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without > > > > > warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me. > > > > > > > > > > Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970). > > > > > An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should > > > > > be > > > > > fine. > > > > > A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since > > > > > goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message > > > > > today” is > > > > > todays datapoint. > > > > > > > > > > Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the > > > > > beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones. > > > > > > > > > > Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight 🙂 > > > > > > > > > > Reto > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves \<[dreeves@beeminder.com](mailto:dreeves@beeminder.com) > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the > > > > > > word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part. > > > > > > I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit > > > > > > goal > > > > > > with a flat road at, say, 30. > > > > > > Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the > > > > > > stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever). > > > > > > Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days > > > > > > old. > > > > > > I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style. > > > > > > > > > > > > Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick: > > [Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More](http://blog.trello.com/introducing-power-ups-calendar-card-aging-and-more/) > > > > > > > > Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. > > > > > > > and make > > > > > > > sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or > > > > > > > something, at > > > > > > > which point the next card is the oldest card. > > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > > Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > > > send > > > > > > an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > > > > send an > > > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > > > – > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups > > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > > an > > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > > > – > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups > > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > > an > > > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > > > – > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out). > > – > [http://bethaknee.com](http://bethaknee.com) > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – Reminders with a sting > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/groups/opt\_out](https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out).