# beeminder's new pricing **URL:** \ **Category:** uncategorized\ **Created:** [August 10, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332 "2011-08-10T22:46:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Reeves](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/daniel_reeves/32/707_2.png) [@Daniel\_Reeves](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Daniel_Reeves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/1 "2011-08-10T22:46:56Z")
We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current version. Any suggestions? It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, you first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether it’s worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your yellow brick road seriously. – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://"Daniel Reeves" Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Reeves](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/daniel_reeves/32/707_2.png) [@Daniel\_Reeves](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Daniel_Reeves)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/2 "2011-08-12T00:54:31Z")
Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks to Julian.) It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > version. Any suggestions? > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, you > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether it’s > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > yellow brick road seriously. > > – > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Just555](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b19c9b/32.png) [@Just555](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Just555)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/3 "2011-08-13T00:51:16Z")
It’s much clearer. But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs increases exponentially for the next reset” What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the user choose the amount. On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks to Julian.) > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > version. Any suggestions? > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, you > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether it’s > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > – > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Reeves](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/daniel_reeves/32/707_2.png) [@Daniel\_Reeves](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Daniel_Reeves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/4 "2011-08-13T04:07:35Z")
I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to put at risk by using the right fee schedule. This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for feedback on this): $0 $5 $10 $30 $90 $300 $900 The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you to take your yellow brick road seriously. At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that eventually motivates you to stay on track. We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to anyone. Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > It’s much clearer. > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > increases exponentially for the next reset” > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > user choose the amount. > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks to Julian.) > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, you > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether it’s > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > – > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Reeves](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/daniel_reeves/32/707_2.png) [@Daniel\_Reeves](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Daniel_Reeves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/5 "2011-08-17T20:12:19Z")
We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your level of akrasia and/or wealth. On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > feedback on this): > $0 > $5 > $10 > $30 > $90 > $300 > $900 > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to anyone. > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > > > It’s much clearer. > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > user choose the amount. > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks to Julian.) > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, you > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether it’s > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > – > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Rob\_Felty](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/rob_felty/32/678_2.png) [@Rob\_Felty](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Rob_Felty)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/6 "2011-08-17T20:51:01Z")
the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I recommend putting more padding in. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > feedback on this): > > $0 > > $5 > > $10 > > $30 > > $90 > > $300 > > $900 > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > anyone. > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks to > > > > Julian.) > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, if > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > you > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if you > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > it’s > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > – > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![bee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/bee/32/41_2.png) [@bee](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/bee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/7 "2011-08-31T15:49:59Z")
You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) B On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfelty@gmail.com](mailto:robfelty@gmail.com) wrote: > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > recommend putting more padding in. > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > feedback on this): > > > $0 > > > $5 > > > $10 > > > $30 > > > $90 > > > $300 > > > $900 > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > anyone. > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > if > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > you > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > you > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > – > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > – > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – What are you beeminding? > **[Beeminder](https://www.beeminder.com/)** > > Goal tracking and commitment contracts ---
**Author:** ![Rob\_Felty](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/rob_felty/32/678_2.png) [@Rob\_Felty](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Rob_Felty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/8 "2011-08-31T16:26:36Z")
awesome. On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Bethany M. Soule [bsoule@gmail.com](mailto:bsoule@gmail.com) wrote: > You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) > > B > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfelty@gmail.com](mailto:robfelty@gmail.com) wrote: > > > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > > recommend putting more padding in. > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) > > wrote: > > > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > > feedback on this): > > > > $0 > > > > $5 > > > > $10 > > > > $30 > > > > $90 > > > > $300 > > > > $900 > > > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new > > > > > > > pricing. > > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > – > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > – > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > What are you beeminding? > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![A\_J](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@A\_J](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/A_J)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/9 "2011-09-02T15:26:07Z")
Hi, I have some comments on the phrasing of the pricing page. There are some slightly confusing points that might need a little more explanation. For example, “If you’re disciplined and self-motivated to reach your goals then Beeminder will be free for you forever.” Makes it sound like there’s some kind of automatic fee that will be applied if you’re NOT disciplined and self-motivated, which isn’t the case. And the “you too” in the “free for you too” sentence is a bit confusing. And this part could perhaps use some more straightforward explanation: “You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and the road steepness that motivate you to reach your goal.” Also, perhaps the text could clarify whether or not you can put up money on the initial attempt, or, if you first have to fail in order to use the pricing scheme. I made some edits playing around with the wording to the text and pasted it below: Pricing What you can do for free It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it, no credit card required. If you’re unusually disciplined and outrageously self-motivated then you’ll never need to put up any money to reach your goal. As long as you stay on your yellow brick road all is roses and ponies. If you do end up veering off your yellow brick road, unable to reach your goal, you can always walk away and abandon that goal with no further obligation. Maybe you decided that your goal sucked and you don’t need Beeminder because you don’t want to reach that stupid goal anyway. No problem! (INSERT HERE WHAT SUCH A PERSON GETS FROM BEEMINDER) What costs money It’s not always easy to stay on our yellow brick roads to meet our goals. Sometimes we need extra motivation. If you have a strong desire to reach your goal and you want to try again you can do so by committing to pay $5 if you go off the road again. So, for example, if you reset your road and try again and fail to stay on the yellow brick road you will lose $5. If you reset your road and decide to try yet again the amount you commit increases exponentially each time. Beeminder will always show you the amount you’re committing and each time you have the choice to decide whether it’s worth another go. In addition, with each reset you can choose how steep to make your yellow brick road, which governs how quickly you have to reach your goal. You can adjust this to make it easier than your previous attempt (\<— this is true right?). We’ll never charge your credit card without your explicit prior consent and there’s never any obligation to reset and try again. You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and the road steepness that motivate you to reach your goal. (\<— This needs a bit more explanation). You may be wondering “Why should I pay money to someone else to do something I know I want to do?” The yellow brick road and the pricing scheme are designed to show you your progress, the leeway you have to stray from your goal and to motivate you to complete that goal. Putting money at stake, even a small amount, helps most people to stay on track to reach their goals. ETC (\<---- I’m kinda of interested in having at the end here a brief explanation of why putting money up works, maybe not necessary. Curious what others think.) * * * Thanks, A.J. On Aug 31, 12:26 pm, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > awesome. > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Bethany M. Soule [bso...@gmail.com](mailto:bso...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) > > > B > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > > > recommend putting more padding in. > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > wrote: > > > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > > > feedback on this): > > > > > $0 > > > > > $5 > > > > > $10 > > > > > $30 > > > > > $90 > > > > > $300 > > > > > $900 > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > > > anyone. > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muito...@gmail.com](mailto:muito...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new > > > > > > > > pricing. > > > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, > > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > > http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > –http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > – > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > – > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > – > > What are you beeminding? > > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Reiley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@David\_Reiley](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/David_Reiley)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/10 "2011-09-02T15:37:52Z")
You might want to think about what kinds of customers you’ll get in the face of competition. If you allow people one “freebie,” while SticKK lets people use their site for free, for example, you might have trouble building traffic. I guess the “free sample” idea is a good one. You don’t particularly want to keep customers who don’t want to pay. I also think you may have trouble getting customers to feel loyal to your site if you stand to make money when they lose. People tend to like life insurance policies, but not annuities. The former pay out only if you die, while the latter pay out more the longer you live. (An annuity is an annual payment until you die, essentially an insurance policy against living too long and running out of savings. I think “life insurance” should probably be called “death insurance” and annuities should be called “life insurance,” but it’s probably too late to change that usage.) Anyway, I’ve noticed that a person tends to feel nervous about a company having a financial interest in their dying, and I think this helps explain why the annuity market is so small, despite the obvious benefits of getting insurance against outliving one’s saving. The analogy to your business seems pretty strong. David On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:26 AM, A.J. wrote: > Hi, > I have some comments on the phrasing of the pricing page. There are > some slightly confusing points that might need a little more > explanation. > For example, “If you’re disciplined and self-motivated to reach your > goals then Beeminder will be free for you forever.” Makes it sound > like there’s some kind of automatic fee that will be applied if you’re > NOT disciplined and self-motivated, which isn’t the case. And the “you > too” in the “free for you too” sentence is a bit confusing. > And this part could perhaps use some more straightforward explanation: > > “You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and the road > steepness that motivate you to reach your goal.” > > Also, perhaps the text could clarify whether or not you can put up > money on the initial attempt, or, if you first have to fail in order > to use the pricing scheme. > > I made some edits playing around with the wording to the text and > pasted it below: > > Pricing > > What you can do for free > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it, no > credit card required. If you’re unusually disciplined and outrageously > self-motivated then you’ll never need to put up any money to reach > your goal. As long as you stay on your yellow brick road all is roses > and ponies. If you do end up veering off your yellow brick road, > unable to reach your goal, you can always walk away and abandon that > goal with no further obligation. Maybe you decided that your goal > sucked and you don’t need Beeminder because you don’t want to reach > that stupid goal anyway. No problem! (INSERT HERE WHAT SUCH A PERSON > GETS FROM BEEMINDER) > > What costs money > > It’s not always easy to stay on our yellow brick roads to meet our > goals. Sometimes we need extra motivation. If you have a strong desire > to reach your goal and you want to try again you can do so by > committing to pay $5 if you go off the road again. So, for example, if > you reset your road and try again and fail to stay on the yellow brick > road you will lose $5. If you reset your road and decide to try yet > again the amount you commit increases exponentially each time. > Beeminder will always show you the amount you’re committing and each > time you have the choice to decide whether it’s worth another go. In > addition, with each reset you can choose how steep to make your yellow > brick road, which governs how quickly you have to reach your goal. You > can adjust this to make it easier than your previous attempt (\<— > this is true right?). We’ll never charge your credit card without your > explicit prior consent and there’s never any obligation to reset and > try again. You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and > the road steepness that motivate you to reach your goal. (\<— This > needs a bit more explanation). > > You may be wondering “Why should I pay money to someone else to do > something I know I want to do?” The yellow brick road and the pricing > scheme are designed to show you your progress, the leeway you have to > stray from your goal and to motivate you to complete that goal. > Putting money at stake, even a small amount, helps most people to stay > on track to reach their goals. ETC (\<---- I’m kinda of interested in > having at the end here a brief explanation of why putting money up > works, maybe not necessary. Curious what others think.) > > * * * > > Thanks, > A.J. > > On Aug 31, 12:26 pm, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > awesome. > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Bethany M. Soule [bso...@gmail.com](mailto:bso...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) > > > > > B > > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > > > > recommend putting more padding in. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > > > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > > > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > > > > feedback on this): > > > > > > $0 > > > > > > $5 > > > > > > $10 > > > > > > $30 > > > > > > $90 > > > > > > $300 > > > > > > $900 > > > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muito...@gmail.com](mailto:muito...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new > > > > > > > > > pricing. > > > > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, > > > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > > > http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > –http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > – > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > – > > > What are you beeminding? > > > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – My home page: [http://www.davidreiley.com](http://www.davidreiley.com) “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.” – Abraham Lincoln ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Reeves](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/daniel_reeves/32/707_2.png) [@Daniel\_Reeves](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Daniel_Reeves)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/11 "2011-09-02T22:24:25Z")
David: StickK, as you probably know, originally envisioned being the beneficiary of people’s commitment contracts but found that people would not go for that. That should certainly give us pause. But we’re a lot different than StickK in a lot of ways. I think the exponential fee schedule makes a big difference, for example. In addition to removing the difficult choice about how much to risk, it makes it feel more reasonable for Beeminder to be the beneficiary. You’re starting with a small amount at risk after you’ve already gotten value out of Beeminder. That could change if you climb up the fee schedule very far though so we need to keep thinking about options for specifying other beneficiaries, I think. (Another difference: I think we’re fundamentally providing more value than StickK because of the pretty graphs and storing your data – another justification for us being the beneficiary of the contracts. Maybe the incentives still feel really screwy, but I don’t think they actually are. Everything we’ve done has been with the objective of making people succeed and we’d have to be very myopic for it to be otherwise.) AJ: Thanks so much for those improvements to the [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) prose. I made the no-brainer changes you suggested and am thinking about the more extensive ones. On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:37, David Reiley [david@davidreiley.com](mailto:david@davidreiley.com) wrote: > You might want to think about what kinds of customers you’ll get in the face of competition. If you allow people one “freebie,” while SticKK lets people use their site for free, for example, you might have trouble building traffic. > > I guess the “free sample” idea is a good one. You don’t particularly want to keep customers who don’t want to pay. > > I also think you may have trouble getting customers to feel loyal to your site if you stand to make money when they lose. People tend to like life insurance policies, but not annuities. The former pay out only if you die, while the latter pay out more the longer you live. (An annuity is an annual payment until you die, essentially an insurance policy against living too long and running out of savings. I think “life insurance” should probably be called “death insurance” and annuities should be called “life insurance,” but it’s probably too late to change that usage.) Anyway, I’ve noticed that a person tends to feel nervous about a company having a financial interest in their dying, and I think this helps explain why the annuity market is so small, despite the obvious benefits of getting insurance against outliving one’s saving. The analogy to your business seems pretty strong. > > David > > On Sep 2, 2011, at 8:26 AM, A.J. wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have some comments on the phrasing of the pricing page. There are > > some slightly confusing points that might need a little more > > explanation. > > For example, “If you’re disciplined and self-motivated to reach your > > goals then Beeminder will be free for you forever.” Makes it sound > > like there’s some kind of automatic fee that will be applied if you’re > > NOT disciplined and self-motivated, which isn’t the case. And the “you > > too” in the “free for you too” sentence is a bit confusing. > > And this part could perhaps use some more straightforward explanation: > > > > “You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and the road > > steepness that motivate you to reach your goal.” > > > > Also, perhaps the text could clarify whether or not you can put up > > money on the initial attempt, or, if you first have to fail in order > > to use the pricing scheme. > > > > I made some edits playing around with the wording to the text and > > pasted it below: > > > > Pricing > > > > What you can do for free > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it, no > > credit card required. If you’re unusually disciplined and outrageously > > self-motivated then you’ll never need to put up any money to reach > > your goal. As long as you stay on your yellow brick road all is roses > > and ponies. If you do end up veering off your yellow brick road, > > unable to reach your goal, you can always walk away and abandon that > > goal with no further obligation. Maybe you decided that your goal > > sucked and you don’t need Beeminder because you don’t want to reach > > that stupid goal anyway. No problem! (INSERT HERE WHAT SUCH A PERSON > > GETS FROM BEEMINDER) > > > > What costs money > > > > It’s not always easy to stay on our yellow brick roads to meet our > > goals. Sometimes we need extra motivation. If you have a strong desire > > to reach your goal and you want to try again you can do so by > > committing to pay $5 if you go off the road again. So, for example, if > > you reset your road and try again and fail to stay on the yellow brick > > road you will lose $5. If you reset your road and decide to try yet > > again the amount you commit increases exponentially each time. > > Beeminder will always show you the amount you’re committing and each > > time you have the choice to decide whether it’s worth another go. In > > addition, with each reset you can choose how steep to make your yellow > > brick road, which governs how quickly you have to reach your goal. You > > can adjust this to make it easier than your previous attempt (\<— > > this is true right?). We’ll never charge your credit card without your > > explicit prior consent and there’s never any obligation to reset and > > try again. You should be able to quickly find the amount of money and > > the road steepness that motivate you to reach your goal. (\<— This > > needs a bit more explanation). > > > > You may be wondering “Why should I pay money to someone else to do > > something I know I want to do?” The yellow brick road and the pricing > > scheme are designed to show you your progress, the leeway you have to > > stray from your goal and to motivate you to complete that goal. > > Putting money at stake, even a small amount, helps most people to stay > > on track to reach their goals. ETC (\<---- I’m kinda of interested in > > having at the end here a brief explanation of why putting money up > > works, maybe not necessary. Curious what others think.) > > > > * * * > > > > Thanks, > > A.J. > > > > On Aug 31, 12:26 pm, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > awesome. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Bethany M. Soule [bso...@gmail.com](mailto:bso...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) > > > > > > > B > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfe...@gmail.com](mailto:robfe...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > > > > > recommend putting more padding in. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > > > > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > > > > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > > > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > > > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > > > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > > > > > feedback on this): > > > > > > > $0 > > > > > > > $5 > > > > > > > $10 > > > > > > > $30 > > > > > > > $90 > > > > > > > $300 > > > > > > > $900 > > > > > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > > > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > > > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > > > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > > > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > > > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > > > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > > > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > > > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > > > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > > > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > > > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muito...@gmail.com](mailto:muito...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new > > > > > > > > > > pricing. > > > > > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, > > > > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > > > > http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > –http://dreev.es-- search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > – > > > > What are you beeminding? > > > > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > My home page: [http://www.davidreiley.com](http://www.davidreiley.com) > > “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet.” – Abraham Lincoln – [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) ---
**Author:** ![Judy\_Soule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@Judy\_Soule](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Judy_Soule)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/beeminders-new-pricing/1332/12 "2011-09-03T19:47:26Z")
Te pricing is good in concept. The amounts just look weird to normal people and a formula for how determined is totally unimportant to me. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2011, at 11:49 AM, “Bethany M. Soule” [bsoule@gmail.com](mailto:bsoule@gmail.com) wrote: > You’re totally right, Rob. It was way too wide. Done. (finally) > > B > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 15:51, Rob Felty [robfelty@gmail.com](mailto:robfelty@gmail.com) wrote: > > > the text width on that page is too wide. It is difficult to read. I > > recommend putting more padding in. > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > We tweaked the fee schedule a bit and wrote out the general formula > > > for it at [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > Let me know if you think the schedule is not so well-suited to your > > > level of akrasia and/or wealth. > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 23:07, Daniel Reeves [dreeves@umich.edu](mailto:dreeves@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > I’m not sure it’s better than letting the user choose, but our > > > > thinking was that we could remove the difficult choice of how much to > > > > put at risk by using the right fee schedule. > > > > This is the tentative fee schedule (we’re definitely looking for > > > > feedback on this): > > > > $0 > > > > $5 > > > > $10 > > > > $30 > > > > $90 > > > > $300 > > > > $900 > > > > > > > > The idea is that you very quickly reach an amount that motivates you > > > > to take your yellow brick road seriously. > > > > At first we thought we’d just double the amount each time but then > > > > realized that that means that by the time you’ve found your Motivation > > > > Point, you’ve actually wasted approximately that same amount in > > > > previously paid fees. That sucks since by definition the Motivation > > > > Point is a scary amount that you definitely don’t want to lose. Yet by > > > > the time that amount is motivating you, you’ve accumulated that much > > > > in losses! So we wanted it to increase more steeply. With the above > > > > schedule you’ll always waste less than half of the amount that > > > > eventually motivates you to stay on track. > > > > > > > > We’re eager to hear if that fee schedule seems crazy (or wasteful) to > > > > anyone. > > > > > > > > Btw, we suspect that to realistically get to the high end of that fee > > > > schedule we’ll need a feature where you can sell your contract to a > > > > friend, ie, make a friend a beneficiary instead of Beeminder. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 19:51, Just555 [muitoman@gmail.com](mailto:muitoman@gmail.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > > It’s much clearer. > > > > > But I don’t really get this part “Each subsequent time you go off the > > > > > road, if you choose to reset and try again, the amount it costs > > > > > increases exponentially for the next reset” > > > > > What’s the logic behind this and why is it better than letting the > > > > > user choose the amount. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2:54 am, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for the feedback on our pricing page! (Special thanks > > > > > > to Julian.) > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s a million times better now: [pricing – beeminder](http://bmndr.com/money) > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 17:46, Daniel Reeves [dree...@umich.edu](mailto:dree...@umich.edu) > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > We’re trying to figure out how to explicate Beeminder’s new pricing. > > > > > > > We’ve been told that on superficial reading it sounded too scary > > > > > > > (“more and more money at risk!” and whatnot). Here’s our current > > > > > > > version. Any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It’s free to create a yellow brick road and start following it (no > > > > > > > credit card required). If you go off that yellow brick road, you can > > > > > > > walk away and abandon that goal – no further obligation. However, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you really _meant_ to stay on the road, and you want to try again, > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > first make a promise (we take your credit card info) to pay $5 if > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > go off the road again. Each subsequent time you go off the road, if > > > > > > > you choose to reset and try again, the amount at risk increases > > > > > > > steeply for the next reset. You see the amount and decide whether > > > > > > > it’s > > > > > > > worth resetting, or how steep to make your yellow brick road, given > > > > > > > how much will be at risk. You should be able to quickly find the > > > > > > > amount of money and road steepness that motivate you to take your > > > > > > > yellow brick road seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > – > > > > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > –[http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road –[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > > > – > > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > > > > > – > > > [http://dreev.es](http://dreev.es) – search://“Daniel Reeves” > > > Follow the Yellow Brick Road – [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) > > – > What are you beeminding? > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com)