# Death to Pessimistic Presumption, All Hail Auto-Derailing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Bugabee\ **Created:** [August 21, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159 "2020-08-21T23:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![philip](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/philip/32/1505_2.png) [@philip](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/philip)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/21 "2020-08-22T17:52:43Z")
> [@johnmarkos](#): > > You’d just eat through your buffer in real time That prompts a good question: what does buffer mean in this non-PPR world? Currently it’s the PPR that enables safety buffer to be calculated, because PPR accumulates at twice the road slope. Does that calculation have any merit in the absence of PPR? As I read @dreev’s post, there’s still a buffer in terms of units, but no longer a buffer that can be expressed in terms of days. ---
**Author:** ![johnmarkos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/johnmarkos/32/4175_2.png) [@johnmarkos](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/johnmarkos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/22 "2020-08-22T20:31:05Z")
> [@philip](#): > > I read @dreev’s post, there’s still a buffer in terms of units, but no longer a buffer that can be expressed in terms of days. If that’s so, then how fast do you eat through the buffer? Or do you derail immediately the first day you fail to enter data? That sounds way too harsh to me, because I’m forgetful, and I’d frequently derail without doing anything “wrong.” It turns the goal from encouragement to do less of a particular thing into punishment for being forgetful. ---
**Author:** ![nkmunjal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8491ac/32.png) [@nkmunjal](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/nkmunjal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/23 "2020-08-22T20:33:27Z")
> [@adamwolf](#): > > Calling them both “emergency days” seems unhelpful to both discussion and to personal motivation I agree, they are very different actions and have different motivation. However, as proposed Beeminder would consider both of those emergency days regardless of personal intent. If I have done a good enough job to clear my board to green before a day when I do not want to log into Beeminder (!?) then why should it be mandated, especially just to type a “0”? Put another way, my feeling is that do-less goals should follow the same contract as do-more: any buffer that you achieve on a goal guarantees you will not derail before X number of days, even if you input nothing (auto-goals not-withstanding). Any PPR-less proposal for mapping units to days would be very welcome too! ---
**Author:** ![zedmango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c67d28/32.png) [@zedmango](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/zedmango)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/24 "2020-08-22T21:06:44Z")
> [@dreev](#): > > What if we replaced the PPR setting with a much simpler and much more draconian auto-derail setting? Like instead of PPRs that derail you by gradually eating through your safety buffer if you stick your head in the sand, we just force-derail you immediately if you hit your deadline without having entered data for that day Yes please! This is brilliant and yet seems so obvious. In fact, I think this should be an option (if not required) for ALL goals. With a do-more goal, with this option enabled, you’d have to enter “0” every day. This would help getting in the habit of entering data every day and solve this problem: > [@shanaqui](#): > > However, sounds like a potential UX nightmare, because people [don’t] see goals where you have to avoid doing a thing as different to goals where you have to do a thing. (I assume that was supposed to say “don’t,” right?) > [@narthur](#): > > An argument against it might be that this, in effect, makes two goals into one. Might it be better to instead make meta minding a first-class Beeminder feature? That seems like an argument for it to me. Though I am totally in support of first-class meta-minding. > [@are](#): > > Personally I would be all for this if there were more _absolutely zero friction_ ways of entering data. Personally I’d love to see this paired with a “smart sms bot.” Yes please! That sounds amazing, and in general entering data in beeminder is way too frictiony. ---
**Author:** ![narthur](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/narthur/32/5113_2.png) [@narthur](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/narthur)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/25 "2020-08-22T21:07:38Z")
You can always turn off PPR. I also think the proposal is that auto derailing could be turned off, too. If auto derailing interval is customizable, then they would both be in effect equally as bad when it comes to being a punishment for forgetfulness. ---
**Author:** ![gaidheal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/gaidheal/32/450_2.png) [@gaidheal](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/gaidheal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/26 "2020-08-22T21:15:43Z")
Let’s say that you require somebody with a do-less goal to enter data every day. Why would you do that and not also require do-more goals to enter data every day, even if its just ‘0’? Another reason I am against the original idea is that for me Beeminder works as a helpful reminder rather than life-or-death pressure. I don’t enjoy pressure at the best of times, and I would be upset if Beeminder required me to be absolutely on top of entering data every day - especially if I had a goal for an issue that I was sensitive about, or struggled with. I do think that PPRs aren’t entirely fit for purpose, however - with a decent buffer, it takes ages to derail, and I previously had the idea of adjustable PPRs - a miminim of 2x your data, with the option to select 3x, 4x. Someone mentioned the idea of being able to select how many days you could go without entering data before derailing, which I’d be more happy with, especially if you really want to kill PPRs. I am definitely against requiring daily data to avoid derailing, though, and my ONE do-less goal (it’s an important one, though!) works very well as is. ---
**Author:** ![adamwolf](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/adamwolf/32/484_2.png) [@adamwolf](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/adamwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/27 "2020-08-22T21:16:30Z")
nkmunjal, there is a fundamental difference between do more and do less buffers. If you have a do less goal, and you never enter data, you never derail. If you have a do more goal with a non-zero slope, and you never enter data, you eventually derail (or the goal ends first). ---
**Author:** ![shanaqui](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/shanaqui/32/3513_2.png) [@shanaqui](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/shanaqui)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/28 "2020-08-22T21:18:32Z")
> [@zedmango](#): > > (I assume that was supposed to say “don’t,” right?) No, it was supposed to say what it said. ---
**Author:** ![kenoubi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/kenoubi/32/842_2.png) [@kenoubi](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/kenoubi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/29 "2020-08-22T21:25:57Z")
> [@dreev](#): > > The use case in question is “I would like to earn some safety buffer and not have to think about my do-less goal” and I’ve made an argument for why, even without the True Breaks feature, the proposed change wouldn’t hurt that use case much. “Beware trivial inconveniences.” If I _were_ thinking about having a do-less goal, being forced to enter data for it every single day would make me just not create that goal. (And of course, no auto-derail at all means I can put off entering data forever and never derail! As you noted, not a very good solution.) ---
**Author:** ![dreev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/dreev/32/4311_2.png) [@dreev](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/dreev)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/30 "2020-08-22T21:48:03Z")
> [@johnmarkos](#): > > That sounds way too harsh to me, because I’m forgetful How does it play out in the status quo when you’re forgetful? The PPR is logged and then at some point you remember to replace it? What makes you remember to do that? Arguably, forgetting to enter data on a do-less goal is such a disaster that Beeminder shouldn’t try to be forgiving about that. That said, the latest feedback here is pulling me more towards either a more flexible autoderail setting (user specifies how long they want to be allowed to go without entering data) or more flexible PPRs (user specifies the actual PPR amount) or find some way to do all this strictly with metagoals (in some way that wouldn’t be too intimidating for newbees). ---
**Author:** ![zedmango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c67d28/32.png) [@zedmango](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/zedmango)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/31 "2020-08-22T21:53:46Z")
> [@gaidheal](#): > > Let’s say that you require somebody with a do-less goal to enter data every day. Why would you do that and not also require do-more goals to enter data every day, even if its just ‘0’? I think we should require that of do-more goals as well! Or at least allow an option to require it! > [@gaidheal](#): > > I would be upset if Beeminder required me to be absolutely on top of entering data every day Whereas I’d like it if Beeminder required this! > [@shanaqui](#): > > No, it was supposed to say what it said. Ok, sorry, I’m confused then - I thought your point was that people would get confused if one type of goal auto-derailed you and the other type didn’t, because people didn’t see them as different. But you’re saying it would be a UX nightmare because people DO distinguish the two types of goals? > [@kenoubi](#): > > “Beware trivial inconveniences.” If I _were_ thinking about having a do-less goal, being forced to enter data for it every single day would make me just not create that goal. By that logic, you wouldn’t create a daily do-more goal either, right? Since you’d have to enter data every day? I’m not seeing how this is a “trivial inconvenience” in the classic sense - it’s more like being discouraged by the thought of having to act on it later than being discouraged by the thought of having to do something else (like log in) now. > [@dreev](#): > > pulling me more towards either a more flexible autoderail setting (user specifies how long they want to be allowed to go without entering data) That seems like a good idea - and you could get rid of PPRs that way. Could the more flexible autoderail setting be an option for all goals? So if you wanted you could set autoderail on a do-more goal so that you derail if you don’t enter at least a “0” every X days? ---
**Author:** ![shanaqui](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/shanaqui/32/3513_2.png) [@shanaqui](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/shanaqui)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/32 "2020-08-22T22:01:39Z")
> [@zedmango](#): > > Ok, sorry, I’m confused then - I thought your point was that people would get confused if one type of goal auto-derailed you and the other type didn’t, because people didn’t see them as different. But you’re saying it would be a UX nightmare because people DO distinguish the two types of goals? Yes. To elaborate… here is the bit I had in mind as I was replying: > [@dreev](#): > > A do-less goal, unless you explicitly opt out of this, must make you derail if you ignore it. As naturally happens with do-more goals that assume you didn’t do anything if you ignore them.) I said that people think there _is_ a difference because (some) people expect that a do-less goal will never derail them unless they enter data showing that they did the thing they weren’t supposed to. They haven’t done the thing, so their thinking is that they shouldn’t derail, and we shouldn’t assume they have. Therefore, making the goals more similar is not necessarily an intuitive step from the user point of view. This is a genuine complaint about PPRs which makes some people _really_ angry, to the point of accusing us of trying to steal their money… but I think it would be worse with an auto-derail instead, because at least PPRs probably won’t derail you _every day_ that you don’t enter data, and auto-derail would. ---
**Author:** ![nkmunjal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8491ac/32.png) [@nkmunjal](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/nkmunjal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/33 "2020-08-22T22:12:29Z")
> [@adamwolf](#): > > nkmunjal, there is a fundamental difference between do more and do less buffers. > > If you have a do less goal, and you never enter data, you never derail. Not as it stands with PPR… that was the whole point of PPR, to make the behavior as close to identical as reasonably possible. If I have a do-less goal with a non-zero slope and I do not enter any data, the PPR will force derailment in a number of days roughly proportional to a ratio between my buffer and my slope. I’m not staunchly defending PPR, but mandatory daily data entry is not my favored implementation either. ---
**Author:** ![johnmarkos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/johnmarkos/32/4175_2.png) [@johnmarkos](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/johnmarkos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:22pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/34 "2020-08-22T22:22:12Z")
> [@dreev](#): > > How does it play out in the status quo when you’re forgetful? The PPR is logged and then at some point you remember to replace it? What makes you remember to do that? I check Beeminder every day, so usually I remember to do it the next day when I see the note that the pessimistic presumption data point was entered. > [@](#): > > Arguably, forgetting to enter data on a do-less goal is such a disaster that Beeminder shouldn’t try to be forgiving about that. Can you explain how it’s a disaster? I forget constantly, like maybe half the time. Rather than derail all the time, I’d turn off auto-derail, or if that wasn’t possible, I’d archive my do-less goals. In general, I prefer automatic to manual entry goals, but there are some things I haven’t figured out how to track automatically, even though I’d still like to track them. Last night, I forgot to set up our automatic drip machine to brew coffee in the morning. Now _that_ was a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![kenoubi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/kenoubi/32/842_2.png) [@kenoubi](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/kenoubi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/35 "2020-08-22T22:26:28Z")
> [@zedmango](#): > > By that logic, you wouldn’t create a daily do-more goal either, right? Since you’d have to enter data every day? I’m not seeing how this is a “trivial inconvenience” in the classic sense - it’s more like being discouraged by the thought of having to act on it later than being discouraged by the thought of having to do something else (like log in) now. Beware those who beware trivial inconveniences, then? I don’t entirely rule out creating a daily do-more goal (or a do-less goal under this proposal) but they’d have to be much more compelling goals to justify the IMO very large overhead of needing to enter data every single day. It’s bad enough if that were just how Beeminder works, period, I’d probably quit using Beeminder, period. ---
**Author:** ![johnmarkos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/johnmarkos/32/4175_2.png) [@johnmarkos](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/johnmarkos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/36 "2020-08-22T22:26:49Z")
> [@dreev](#): > > That said, the latest feedback here is pulling me more towards either a more flexible autoderail setting (user specifies how long they want to be allowed to go without entering data) or more flexible PPRs (user specifies the actual PPR amount) or find some way to do all this strictly with metagoals (in some way that wouldn’t be too intimidating for newbees). I could live with the goal turning red on the day after I failed to enter a data point – then I’d have 24 hours to enter it before the goal derailed. Then when I entered data . . . I’m not sure. Maybe it would behave as if I were entering the data the previous day? ---
**Author:** ![alys](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/alys/32/4726_2.png) [@alys](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/alys)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/37 "2020-08-23T03:27:03Z")
I like the auto-derail idea and as others have said I think it could be applied to do-more goals too. I feel it may be less confusing if it’s an identical opt-in setting for both goal types. Perhaps it could then be primarily marketed as a way of making yourself enter data every day, rather than primarily as a better alternative to the (potentially confusing) PPR feature. The footnotes could go into the gory details for do-less goals. 🙂 I like the idea of the feature encouraging me to make at least a little progress on do-more goals each day even when I’ve built up a safety buffer (daily action keeps momentum / habit going). I could still enter 0 of course but the act of needing to do that may prompt me to make it more than 0. ---
**Author:** ![zedmango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c67d28/32.png) [@zedmango](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/zedmango)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 5:17am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/38 "2020-08-23T05:17:45Z")
> [@nkmunjal](#): > > If I have done a good enough job to clear my board to green before a day when I do not want to log into Beeminder This highlights an important usage variation - I almost entirely use Beeminder on Android, and I have homescreen widgets for all my goals, so I never need to “log in” to Beeminder. The goals are right there on my homescreen, and I’m constantly looking at my phone. That makes checking all my goals and entering data easier. The Android app and widgets are amazing - you can enter data without ever needing to even open a web browser!!! 🥳 Since opening a web browser is a huge pain and distraction for me, having that option is really key for my Beeminder usage. But perhaps others don’t use it that way? I know that iPhone beeminder doesn’t have the same option due to Apple’s restrictions. > [@johnmarkos](#): > > If that’s so, then how fast do you eat through the buffer? Or do you derail immediately the first day you fail to enter data? That sounds way too harsh to me, because I’m forgetful, and I’d frequently derail without doing anything “wrong.” It turns the goal from encouragement to do less of a particular thing into punishment for being forgetful. As I understand the proposal, you derail after X days, where X is set by the user per-goal. > [@shanaqui](#): > > (some) people expect that a do-less goal will never derail them unless they enter data showing that they did the thing they weren’t supposed to. They haven’t done the thing, so their thinking is that they shouldn’t derail, and we shouldn’t assume they have. > > This is a genuine complaint about PPRs which makes some people _really_ angry, to the point of accusing us of trying to steal their money… but I think it would be worse with an auto-derail instead, because at least PPRs probably won’t derail you _every day_ that you don’t enter data, and auto-derail would. Hmm… maybe the auto-derail should be opt-in then. > [@johnmarkos](#): > > I check Beeminder every day, so usually I remember to do it the next day when I see the note that the pessimistic presumption data point was entered. If you check it every day, why couldn’t that be your trigger to enter data for do-less goals, under a hypothetical auto-derail regime? > [@kenoubi](#): > > I don’t entirely rule out creating a daily do-more goal (or a do-less goal under this proposal) but they’d have to be much more compelling goals to justify the IMO very large overhead of needing to enter data every single day. What are your current goals, then? How often do you typically enter data? ---
**Author:** ![johnmarkos](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/johnmarkos/32/4175_2.png) [@johnmarkos](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/johnmarkos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/39 "2020-08-23T06:04:25Z")
> [@zedmango](#): > > As I understand the proposal, you derail after X days, where X is set by the user per-goal. That would be fine with me. > [@zedmango](#): > > If you check it every day, why couldn’t that be your trigger to enter data for do-less goals, under a hypothetical auto-derail regime? For some do less goals, I have to enter the data point at the very end of the day for it to be accurate. Otherwise, I’ll have more opportunities to do the thing I’m trying to do less. Also, I might be doing a quick scan of my goals and think that one is OK, because it’s green. It’s only the next day, when it’s blue or yellow, that I pay attention to it. ---
**Author:** ![philip](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/philip/32/1505_2.png) [@philip](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/philip)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 9:28am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159/40 "2020-08-23T09:28:06Z")
> [@dreev](#): > > find some way to do all this strictly with metagoals (in some way that wouldn’t be too intimidating for newbees) > [@alys](#): > > as others have said I think it could be applied to do-more goals too. I feel it may be less confusing if it’s an identical opt-in setting for both goal types. This does sound like a universal meta-goal thing; “make sure I enter data at least every N days” And that’s probably something that we could distinguish in the UI from goals that are on an emergency day (because of the datapoint values vs the road) Looking at my do-more goals, I have some that force data entry (aka doing) every couple of days thanks to the ‘max safe days’ setting. Some of those could be softened to just bring the goal to mind (by forcing data entry) rather than messing with the slope. [Previous page](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/death-to-pessimistic-presumption-all-hail-auto-derailing/7159.md?page=3)