# goal structure for stopping nail biting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Life\ **Created:** [July 8, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510 "2014-07-08T20:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kkyang](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/kkyang/32/108_2.png) [@kkyang](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/kkyang)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/1 "2014-07-08T20:36:00Z")
Currently I’ve structured my goal to be a “do less” goal with the weekly rate of 0. This would mean one slip up and I’m done. So no yellow brick road really. Is this too rigid or have you found a better way to do it? Thanks! -Kenny – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Lincoln\_Quirk](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/lincoln_quirk/32/686_2.png) [@Lincoln\_Quirk](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Lincoln_Quirk)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/2 "2014-07-08T20:47:42Z")
Thanks for reminding me to try harder with this goal – one I’ve had myself. I had good luck in the past with bittering nail goop ( [Amazon.com](http://smile.amazon.com/Mavala-Stop-Biting-Sucking-0-3-Fluid/dp/B0000YUXI0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404851886&sr=8-1&keywords=bitrex)) but I didn’t keep re-applying it, so the habit came back, although much less bad. So what I’ve just done is Beeminded “applying nail goop” once every two days. > **[Beeminder](https://www.beeminder.com/lincolnq/bitternails)** > > Goal tracking and commitment contracts On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Kenny Yang [yangkennyk@gmail.com](mailto:yangkennyk@gmail.com) wrote: > Currently I’ve structured my goal to be a “do less” goal with the weekly > rate of 0. > > This would mean one slip up and I’m done. So no yellow brick road really. > > Is this too rigid or have you found a better way to do it? > > Thanks! > > -Kenny > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![kkyang](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/kkyang/32/108_2.png) [@kkyang](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/kkyang)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/3 "2014-07-08T20:48:53Z")
I couldn’t figure out how to edit my original post so here’s a couple extra questions As for pessimistic presumptive reports, will it auto add +1 to my goal if I don’t report? If so, would my goal automatically derail and I lose my pledge since my hard cap is 0? Also. Currently my nail biting goal is green. Is there anyway to trigger it so that it’s red everyday if I don’t report that day? – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Bethany\_M\_Soule](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex019/user_avatar/forum.beeminder.com/bethany_m_soule/32/666_2.png) [@Bethany\_M\_Soule](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Bethany_M_Soule)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/4 "2014-07-09T23:00:50Z")
Zero rate do-less goals are slightly pathological because any day you don’t report will instantly derail you. So even though it says you’re green you’re really red. You’re just always red. If you change the rate to be just ever so slightly positive, you might find the results slightly more useful. You could even keep yourself in the orange by entering the (very small) daily rate each day (instead of 0). But this is pretty convoluted. > **[Beeminder](https://www.beeminder.com/users/sign_in)** > > Goal tracking and commitment contracts Or if it is something you don’t ever want to ever do, as opposed to limiting it, the old standby of tracking a do-more !{bad thing} days might be a better solution. Bethany On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Kenny Yang [yangkennyk@gmail.com](mailto:yangkennyk@gmail.com) wrote: > I couldn’t figure out how to edit my original post so here’s a couple extra > questions > > As for pessimistic presumptive reports, will it auto add +1 to my goal if I > don’t report? If so, would my goal automatically derail and I lose my pledge > since my hard cap is 0? > > Also. Currently my nail biting goal is green. Is there anyway to trigger it > so that it’s red everyday if I don’t report that day? > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). – > **[Bethaknee is me](https://bsoule.com)** > > Bethany is a Master of computer science by authority of Columbia University. She is passionate about autonomous locomotion, self quantification, fiber arts, mythologies, and of course codecodecode. She lives in the verdant Pacific Northwest. [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – Reminders with a sting – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Schell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/34f0e0/32.png) [@Alex\_Schell](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Alex_Schell)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/5 "2014-07-10T07:34:04Z")
I’d start by setting a super modest limit and just record data to see where you stand. Then adjust the road steepness from there. But I think your main problem is going to be recording your data. Nailbiting is semi-autonomous so it’s hard to measure except in retrospect (and even then, do you count episodes, time, number of nails, or what?). It occurs to me (though not from experience) that random sampling with TagTime might be the perfect solution to both problems. On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 4:36:00 PM UTC-4, Kenny Yang wrote: > Currently I’ve structured my goal to be a “do less” goal with the weekly > rate of 0. > > This would mean one slip up and I’m done. So no yellow brick road really. > > Is this too rigid or have you found a better way to do it? > > Thanks! > > -Kenny – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Alys1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alys1](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Alys1)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/6 "2014-07-10T07:49:43Z")
When I was stopping myself biting my nails, one of the methods I used was to record at the end of the day whether I had “ten neat nails” or not. This didn’t necessarily mean that I had not bitten my nails at all that day. If I started biting one, or even all ten, and then stopped and filed them until they were all neat and they stayed that way until bedtime, then that counted as a success for the day. This also meant that if I bit one nail so much that it was short and jagged and could not be made neat, then I’d fail the “ten neat nails” test for a few days in a row, until it grew out enough to be filed. That (usually) gave me a lot of incentive to stop biting as soon as I noticed I’d started. It also rewarded me for not biting my nails for many days in a row, because then I’d have larger nails that could stand a tiny bit of biting in stressful times without failing the “ten neat nails” test. Another benefit was that it forced me to keep my nails neat even when I wasn’t biting them, so there were fewer times when there were jagged edges that would tempt me to bite. Another strategy I used at a different time was to record at the end of the day simply whether I had bitten my nails or not that day - record a 0 (good) or 1 (bad) for the day. Also, for a while I was recording how many times I bit my nails, and keeping it under a certain limit. All strategies were (mostly) successful at different times. I’d find after a while that one technique stopped working for me, so I’d adjust it a bit, and that seemed to give me more motivation to stop biting. The “ten neat nails” strategy was usually my favourite. With an ingrained, automatic habit like biting your nails, it can be very hard to stop. You might find that one measurement technique won’t be enough, or will work for a while and then stop working. Don’t be discouraged. Find some way to adjust it so that it starts working again. I still bite my nails occasionally but MUCH less than I used to, so it is achievable. On 10 July 2014 17:34, Alex Schell [schell.alex@gmail.com](mailto:schell.alex@gmail.com) wrote: > I’d start by setting a super modest limit and just record data to see where > you stand. Then adjust the road steepness from there. But I think your main > problem is going to be recording your data. Nailbiting is semi-autonomous so > it’s hard to measure except in retrospect (and even then, do you count > episodes, time, number of nails, or what?). It occurs to me (though not from > experience) that random sampling with TagTime might be the perfect solution > to both problems. > > On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 4:36:00 PM UTC-4, Kenny Yang wrote: > > > Currently I’ve structured my goal to be a “do less” goal with the weekly > > rate of 0. > > > > This would mean one slip up and I’m done. So no yellow brick road really. > > > > Is this too rigid or have you found a better way to do it? > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Kenny > > – > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Essentiae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Essentiae](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Essentiae)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/7 "2014-07-16T12:32:13Z")
When did this become the case? I used to have a 0-rate do-less goal without any problem. Are there plans to fix this bug (or is it just a matter of unchecking things like “pessimistic presumptives” in the settings, etc? On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 7:00:51 PM UTC-4, Bethany M. Soule wrote: > Zero rate do-less goals are slightly pathological because any day you > don’t report will instantly derail you. So even though it says you’re > green you’re really red. You’re just always red. > > If you change the rate to be just ever so slightly positive, you might > find the results slightly more useful. You could even keep yourself in > the orange by entering the (very small) daily rate each day (instead > of 0). But this is pretty convoluted. > [beeminder](https://www.beeminder.com/b/goals/testzero) > > Or if it is something you don’t ever want to ever do, as opposed to > limiting it, the old standby of tracking a do-more !{bad thing} days > might be a better solution. > > Bethany > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Kenny Yang \<[yangk...@gmail.com](mailto:yangk...@gmail.com) > \\> wrote: > > > I couldn’t figure out how to edit my original post so here’s a couple > > extra > > questions > > > > As for pessimistic presumptive reports, will it auto add +1 to my goal > > if I > > don’t report? If so, would my goal automatically derail and I lose my > > pledge > > since my hard cap is 0? > > > > Also. Currently my nail biting goal is green. Is there anyway to trigger > > it > > so that it’s red everyday if I don’t report that day? > > > > – > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > “Akratics Anonymous” group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > > an > > email to [akratics+u...@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+u...@googlegroups.com) \. > > For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). > > – > [http://bethaknee.com](http://bethaknee.com) > [http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com) – Reminders with a sting – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout). ---
**Author:** ![Essentiae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Essentiae](https://forum.beeminder.com/u/Essentiae)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://forum.beeminder.com/t/goal-structure-for-stopping-nail-biting/1510/8 "2014-07-16T12:38:38Z")
I have a goal to try and break a habit. Something I was doing between 15 and 20 times a day on some days. Instead of trying to go straight to 0, I started really high and slowly (very slowly) have been working my way down over the last months. (You could go quicker, of course.) I would say start with less than you’re currently doing and then keep bringing the rate down. Tracking it will make you aware of it at first, which for me was half the battle, and then you can adjust depending on how you’re doing. With something as unconscious, half the time, as biting your nails is, I think going straight to 0 is likely to be frustratingly unsustainable. Start by becoming aware of it and by limiting it at least to some degree through tracking, and then see from there how much you think you can challenge yourself depending on what that looks like. It’ll take longer, but I have found this way has worked way better for me and the 0 rate did not work at all. At least now I’m very close to extinguishing this habit when, with the cold-turkey way, I would have failed. But YMMV. On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 4:36:00 PM UTC-4, Kenny Yang wrote: > Currently I’ve structured my goal to be a “do less” goal with the weekly > rate of 0. > > This would mean one slip up and I’m done. So no yellow brick road really. > > Is this too rigid or have you found a better way to do it? > > Thanks! > > -Kenny – You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com](mailto:akratics+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). For more options, visit [https://groups.google.com/d/optout](https://groups.google.com/d/optout).