Beeminder Forum

Simultaneous TagTime

Was chatting to Benja Fallenstein when one of our phones pinged for a
TagTime update. Benja said: wouldn’t it be great if everyone’s phone pinged
at once?

We’ve worked out an efficient algorithm that would bring that about
(specifically that if your phone pings, and my ping frequency is greater
than or equal to yours, mine will ping at the same time) while keeping the
other good properties of TagTime pings - but before implementing it I
thought I’d seek opinions on whether it’s desirable. For one thing, if any
phone is fast or slow, someone will get warning on when the ping is coming
up, defeating the purpose - unless you always respect the ping when you
first hear it regardless of whether it comes from your phone. What do you
think?


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Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple devices tag time?

From: akratics@googlegroups.com [mailto:akratics@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Crowley
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:55 PM
To: akratics@googlegroups.com
Subject: Simultaneous TagTime

Was chatting to Benja Fallenstein when one of our phones pinged for a TagTime update. Benja said: wouldn’t it be great if everyone’s phone pinged at once?

We’ve worked out an efficient algorithm that would bring that about (specifically that if your phone pings, and my ping frequency is greater than or equal to yours, mine will ping at the same time) while keeping the other good properties of TagTime pings - but before implementing it I thought I’d seek opinions on whether it’s desirable. For one thing, if any phone is fast or slow, someone will get warning on when the ping is coming up, defeating the purpose - unless you always respect the ping when you first hear it regardless of whether it comes from your phone. What do you think?

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On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just as well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use case.
We thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often
one of us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up to, but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at
once!


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whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just as well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use case. We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we were up to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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"Akratics Anonymous" group.
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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule bsoule@beeminder.com
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use case.
We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we were up
to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule bsoule@beeminder.com
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use case.
We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we were up
to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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http://dreev.es – search://"Daniel Reeves"
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little annoying
at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time between
pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule <bsoule@beeminder.com

wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.

We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we were
up

to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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http://dreev.es – search://"Daniel Reeves"
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com


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That explains it, Benja had it set to ping at 30 mins. It didn’t occur to
me you might already have implemented the feature because I read the source
long ago and IIRC it didn’t always work that way. Nice work!

The algorithm we came up with was something like this: break time up into
convenient chunks of, say 2^16 seconds. Use the inverse CDF of the
appropriate binomial distribution to calculate how many pings you should
get in a given chunk; then throw in the pings randomly over the chunk,
taking care not to hit the same second twice. If you replace the random
number generator with a PRF, this means you don’t have to start at the
beginning of time, you can just generate the current chunk, and maybe the
next one (or next more than one if your ping frequency is low enough that
whole chunks are sometimes empty). This also means you don’t have to store
the RNG state anywhere; it’s cheap to generate on the fly. If my frequency
is higher than yours, I’ll always get more pings than you, because the
inverse CDF is monotonic.


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+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can
actually get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for
a reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter <
baxter.katherine@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little annoying
at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time between
pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule <
bsoule@beeminder.com>
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just
as

well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.

We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up

to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com


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As a source of long-run information, the ping length may not matter.

As a source of beeminder autodata, I wouldn’t want it to be any longer.
Tagtime-fuelled beemergency days are sufficiently beyond my control as it
is. (i.e. I can have a very focussed day on average, but still encounter
the pathological case of getting pinged just as I go to get a drink, etc.)

Yes, it can be annoying to get pinged multiple times in the same minute,
balanced against the annoyance of doing a few hours of solid work without
getting pinged once. I’ve slowly got used to that, and I don’t think I’d
want to adjust it in either direction.

Every now and again I have a pingless stretch of 4+ hours, which is about 5
ping lengths. By implication, a ping-average of 2 hours would have the
occasional stretch of 10-12 hours without a single ping.

I think that I would find a more frequent ping to be less intrusive,
because it would become normal and less disruptive to my current activity
or flow.

Philip

On 26 March 2014 09:47, Valerio De Camillis worthstream@gmail.com wrote:

+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can
actually get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for
a reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter <
baxter.katherine@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little
annoying at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time
between pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule <
bsoule@beeminder.com>
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just
as

well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.

We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so
often

one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up

to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com


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I agree with this. I prefer a more frequent ping. Also, I switch between projects more often. —
Sent from Mailbox for iPhone

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Philip Hellyer philip@hellyer.net
wrote:

As a source of long-run information, the ping length may not matter.
As a source of beeminder autodata, I wouldn’t want it to be any longer.
Tagtime-fuelled beemergency days are sufficiently beyond my control as it
is. (i.e. I can have a very focussed day on average, but still encounter
the pathological case of getting pinged just as I go to get a drink, etc.)
Yes, it can be annoying to get pinged multiple times in the same minute,
balanced against the annoyance of doing a few hours of solid work without
getting pinged once. I’ve slowly got used to that, and I don’t think I’d
want to adjust it in either direction.
Every now and again I have a pingless stretch of 4+ hours, which is about 5
ping lengths. By implication, a ping-average of 2 hours would have the
occasional stretch of 10-12 hours without a single ping.
I think that I would find a more frequent ping to be less intrusive,
because it would become normal and less disruptive to my current activity
or flow.
Philip
On 26 March 2014 09:47, Valerio De Camillis worthstream@gmail.com wrote:

+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can
actually get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for
a reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter <
baxter.katherine@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little
annoying at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time
between pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule <
bsoule@beeminder.com>
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just
as

well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.

We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so
often

one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up

to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


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[Adding the TagTime google group.]

Valerio, if TagTime breaks your flow then I’d consider that a
dealbreaker at any ping frequency. But I think it’s the opposite.
Quoting myself (actually this sounds more like Bethany – I guess we
coauthored it) from messymatters.com/tagtime :

We find it doesn’t interrupt our flow at all. We think the difference is that it’s not like, say, a pop-up email notifier that pulls your train of thought off in a new direction. It’s almost the opposite: it reinforces what you’re already focused on. It can even serve to get you back on track if your mind is starting to wander. “Oh yeah, this email is entirely unrelated to the work I intended to be doing. Whoops!”

I like Philip’s argument that you might want more frequent pings to
reduce the risk of a derailment due to bad luck if you’re beeminding a
tagtime-based goal. Though I think my tminder.meteor.com works well
for managing that risk. (I say, with a 0.4% and climbing risk of
derailing on bmndr.com/d/meta tonight.)

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Valerio De Camillis
worthstream@gmail.com wrote:

+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can actually
get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for a
reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter
baxter.katherine@gmail.com wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little annoying
at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time between
pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule
bsoule@beeminder.com
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work just
as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.
We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so
often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up
to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups
"Akratics Anonymous" group.
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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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http://dreev.es – search://"Daniel Reeves"
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com


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http://dreev.es – search://"Daniel Reeves"
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

I thought about this problem, too.

I am more concerned about the synchronization between desktop tagtime and
mobile tagtime, but have not tried it yet.
Having two mobile devices, though, I looked at how they work together.
Unfortunately, they are out of sync, even if I have configured the same
time interval (30 min).

Now, my question is: is there a way to revert the situation? That is, if I
uninstall and reinstall the apps (without time gap modification), will they
be in sync?

-Alessandro

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

[Adding the TagTime google group.]

Valerio, if TagTime breaks your flow then I’d consider that a
dealbreaker at any ping frequency. But I think it’s the opposite.
Quoting myself (actually this sounds more like Bethany – I guess we
coauthored it) from messymatters.com/tagtime :

We find it doesn’t interrupt our flow at all. We think the difference is
that it’s not like, say, a pop-up email notifier that pulls your train of
thought off in a new direction. It’s almost the opposite: it reinforces
what you’re already focused on. It can even serve to get you back on track
if your mind is starting to wander. “Oh yeah, this email is entirely
unrelated to the work I intended to be doing. Whoops!”

I like Philip’s argument that you might want more frequent pings to
reduce the risk of a derailment due to bad luck if you’re beeminding a
tagtime-based goal. Though I think my tminder.meteor.com works well
for managing that risk. (I say, with a 0.4% and climbing risk of
derailing on bmndr.com/d/meta tonight.)

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Valerio De Camillis
worthstream@gmail.com wrote:

+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using
it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can
actually
get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for a
reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter
baxter.katherine@gmail.com wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little
annoying

at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time between
pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule
bsoule@beeminder.com
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious
unison).

Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley <
ciphergoth@gmail.com>

wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work
just

as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important use
case.
We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so
often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up
to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at once!


You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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send
an
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http://bethaknee.com
http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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http://dreev.es – search://"Daniel Reeves"
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com


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Yes, that should do it. It would be nice to have like a markov
property where any two devices with the same gap are necessarily in
sync.

And to repeat: I love Paul and Benja’s idea of making all ping
schedules synced regardless of gap – if you have a smaller gap then
you’ll just get additional pings in between. Or if bigger you just
will not get some of the pings.

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 4:37 AM, Alessandro Cuttin alessandro@cuttin.it wrote:

I thought about this problem, too.

I am more concerned about the synchronization between desktop tagtime and
mobile tagtime, but have not tried it yet.
Having two mobile devices, though, I looked at how they work together.
Unfortunately, they are out of sync, even if I have configured the same time
interval (30 min).

Now, my question is: is there a way to revert the situation? That is, if I
uninstall and reinstall the apps (without time gap modification), will they
be in sync?

-Alessandro

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

[Adding the TagTime google group.]

Valerio, if TagTime breaks your flow then I’d consider that a
dealbreaker at any ping frequency. But I think it’s the opposite.
Quoting myself (actually this sounds more like Bethany – I guess we
coauthored it) from messymatters.com/tagtime :

We find it doesn’t interrupt our flow at all. We think the difference is
that it’s not like, say, a pop-up email notifier that pulls your train of
thought off in a new direction. It’s almost the opposite: it reinforces what
you’re already focused on. It can even serve to get you back on track if
your mind is starting to wander. “Oh yeah, this email is entirely unrelated
to the work I intended to be doing. Whoops!”

I like Philip’s argument that you might want more frequent pings to
reduce the risk of a derailment due to bad luck if you’re beeminding a
tagtime-based goal. Though I think my tminder.meteor.com works well
for managing that risk. (I say, with a 0.4% and climbing risk of
derailing on bmndr.com/d/meta tonight.)

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Valerio De Camillis
worthstream@gmail.com wrote:

+1.

I did try TagTime back when it was not configurable, and did stop using
it
for exactly this reason. 45 minutes were way too frequent.
In the long run there’s no statistical difference between sampling on an
average of 45 min and, say, 2 hours, but in the second case you can
actually
get into flow at work or immerse yourself in a movie or a book for a
reasonable lenght of time.

Ciao,
\ Valerio De Camillis

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Katherine Baxter
baxter.katherine@gmail.com wrote:

I’ve been running with 45 minutes for now, but I find it a little
annoying
at that frequency. I’m considering increasing the average time between
pings. So, I for one would be frustrated if it wasn’t configurable.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

Let me also second Paul’s suggestion that you always respect the first
ping you hear regardless of what device it comes from. That’s
critical.

Bethany’s system clock actually keeps getting annoyingly out of sync
and I keep having her run
sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
to fix it. (I know it does that automatically but apparently not often
enough. She should probably cron that to run hourly.)

If we do actually want the gap to be configurable, I love Paul and
Benja’s idea of making all ping schedules synced regardless of gap –
if you have a smaller gap then you’ll just get additional pings in
between. Or if bigger you just will not get some of the pings. But
again, first question is whether we can get away with making it moot
by just making everyone use 45 minutes. I know some people will feel
like it should be configurable on principle but unless someone feels
strongly that 45 minutes doesn’t work for them and some other gap
does, then it would sure make a lot of problems go away to just fix
that parameter.

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Braden Shepherdson
braden.shepherdson@gmail.com wrote:

I was confused by this too: my wife’s and my tagtime fire at the
same
time,
generally within one second of each other.

Neither of us ever changed the schedule, so it makes sense if we’re
using
the same random seed.

Braden

On Tue Mar 25 2014 at 3:19:13 PM, Bethany M. Soule
bsoule@beeminder.com
wrote:

whatwhatwhat? why are they not pinging at the same time?

Ohh yeah, I let the configurable gap in at some point. If you never
changed the gap you’d have the same schedule to begin with. (In our
household all the devices ring out for attention in glorious
unison).
Is that something that people change just because they can, or is
there evidence that there’s actual value for it being different
than
45 minutes?

B

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Paul Crowley
ciphergoth@gmail.com
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 March 2014 19:03:03 UTC, Jolly wrote:

Is this for multiple user tag time use, or single user, multiple
devices
tag time?

We were imagining multiple users, but the algorithm would work
just
as
well
in the other instance and that’s probably a far more important
use
case.
We
thought of it because it was slightly distracting that every so
often
one of
us would drop out of the conversation to tell our phones what we
were up
to,
but it would be less distracting if we were both doing it at
once!


You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google
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http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting


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Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

On Sunday, 30 March 2014 20:45:40 UTC+1, Daniel Reeves wrote:

And to repeat: I love Paul and Benja’s idea of making all ping
schedules synced regardless of gap – if you have a smaller gap then
you’ll just get additional pings in between. Or if bigger you just
will not get some of the pings.

I will probably implement face down mode first because that meets my
immediate need, but if I get that working I’m very tempted to do this next!


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