"take a break" + pessimistic presumptive reports?

How do the two features in the subject of this email play together? Do
they? I have a do-less goal with a limit of 5 per day, with PPR turned
on. When I click “take a break” it suggests to set the rate to 10. It
seems to me this could mean one of two things:

  1. The pessimistic presumptive report values will remain twice the "normal"
    rate (i.e. 10/day), so they will match the new rate, and hence I can ignore
    this goal and it will maintain the same safety buffer for the duration of
    the break.
  2. The pessimistic presumptive report values will now be 20 (twice the new
    "break" rate), which would mean it is not really a break at all.

-Brent

The answer is 2, as implemented, which I think is best, for a couple reasons:

a. It would have to be overly clever to do otherwise. “Scheduled
breaks” is really “set the YBR to a specified rate between two
arbitrary dates” so it can’t or shouldn’t presume to infer anything
about your intentions beyond the change of slope.

b. Pessimistic Presumptive Reports are specifically solving the
problem of “don’t let me flake out on entering data”. If you want to
be able to flake out on entering data, then you should turn PPR off.

Let me know if that was convincing! Also interested to hear if anyone
else was (or would’ve been) thrown by that.

Maybe the real problem here is the “take a break” terminology…

On 10 Sep 2013 08:28, “Brent Yorgey” byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

How do the two features in the subject of this email play together? Do they? I have a do-less goal with a limit of 5 per day, with PPR turned on. When I click “take a break” it suggests to set the rate to 10. It seems to me this could mean one of two things:

  1. The pessimistic presumptive report values will remain twice the “normal” rate (i.e. 10/day), so they will match the new rate, and hence I can ignore this goal and it will maintain the same safety buffer for the duration of the break.
  2. The pessimistic presumptive report values will now be 20 (twice the new “break” rate), which would mean it is not really a break at all.

-Brent


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OK, makes sense. I agree that simple is better than clever. Note that I
do want to flake out on entering data—but only during my break! I guess
I will just turn off PPR and set the rate to zero then (and remember to
turn PPR back on after the break).

I think the “take a break” terminology is confusing only in this specific
case (do-less + PPR), since to me “take a break” means “I don’t have to
think about this goal during this time period”. However, I do note that
confusion aside, the feature is actually useful for more than just taking
breaks. For example, say a month from now I know I will have two days off
work and I want to spend those days baking many more cookies than usual –
I can use the “take a break” feature to set my cookie-baking YBR to be
steeper for those two days. So perhaps there is some better terminology
which says more precisely what the feature is? I don’t have any good
suggestions though. And perhaps it is fine the way it is, and you can just
let advanced users figure out such “unintended” ways to use the system.

-Brent

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

The answer is 2, as implemented, which I think is best, for a couple
reasons:

a. It would have to be overly clever to do otherwise. “Scheduled
breaks” is really “set the YBR to a specified rate between two
arbitrary dates” so it can’t or shouldn’t presume to infer anything
about your intentions beyond the change of slope.

b. Pessimistic Presumptive Reports are specifically solving the
problem of “don’t let me flake out on entering data”. If you want to
be able to flake out on entering data, then you should turn PPR off.

Let me know if that was convincing! Also interested to hear if anyone
else was (or would’ve been) thrown by that.

Maybe the real problem here is the “take a break” terminology…

On 10 Sep 2013 08:28, “Brent Yorgey” byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

How do the two features in the subject of this email play together? Do
they? I have a do-less goal with a limit of 5 per day, with PPR turned on.
When I click “take a break” it suggests to set the rate to 10. It seems
to me this could mean one of two things:

  1. The pessimistic presumptive report values will remain twice the
    "normal" rate (i.e. 10/day), so they will match the new rate, and hence I
    can ignore this goal and it will maintain the same safety buffer for the
    duration of the break.
  2. The pessimistic presumptive report values will now be 20 (twice the
    new “break” rate), which would mean it is not really a break at all.

-Brent


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What about making the feature concept about “scheduling a change in
your YBR” instead of “taking a break?” For vacations and other break-y
things you can schedule a change at the beginning and another one at
the end.

If I verbally describe my weight goals right now, they look like this:

  • Weigh below W on date D, to make it in my weight class for an
    athletic competition
  • Binge to all hell on date D, probably weighing in significantly
    higher than W on date D+1
  • Maintain my weight starting around D+7

I recognize that this isn’t a typical case, but I’d love to be able to
schedule out those changes in my YBR.

I can get pretty much everything I want by just keeping my goal as
weigh W by D, succeed (I hope!), and then restart the goal around D+7
when I’m ready for a flat road. The only thing I lose is a week of
data in my graph, but I think I can manually enter those when I
restart the goal. It also means I could flake out and just never start
tracking again.

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Brent Yorgey byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

OK, makes sense. I agree that simple is better than clever. Note that I
do want to flake out on entering data—but only during my break! I guess
I will just turn off PPR and set the rate to zero then (and remember to turn
PPR back on after the break).

I think the “take a break” terminology is confusing only in this specific
case (do-less + PPR), since to me “take a break” means “I don’t have to
think about this goal during this time period”. However, I do note that
confusion aside, the feature is actually useful for more than just taking
breaks. For example, say a month from now I know I will have two days off
work and I want to spend those days baking many more cookies than usual – I
can use the “take a break” feature to set my cookie-baking YBR to be
steeper for those two days. So perhaps there is some better terminology
which says more precisely what the feature is? I don’t have any good
suggestions though. And perhaps it is fine the way it is, and you can just
let advanced users figure out such “unintended” ways to use the system.

-Brent

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

The answer is 2, as implemented, which I think is best, for a couple
reasons:

a. It would have to be overly clever to do otherwise. “Scheduled
breaks” is really “set the YBR to a specified rate between two
arbitrary dates” so it can’t or shouldn’t presume to infer anything
about your intentions beyond the change of slope.

b. Pessimistic Presumptive Reports are specifically solving the
problem of “don’t let me flake out on entering data”. If you want to
be able to flake out on entering data, then you should turn PPR off.

Let me know if that was convincing! Also interested to hear if anyone
else was (or would’ve been) thrown by that.

Maybe the real problem here is the “take a break” terminology…

On 10 Sep 2013 08:28, “Brent Yorgey” byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

How do the two features in the subject of this email play together? Do
they? I have a do-less goal with a limit of 5 per day, with PPR turned on.
When I click “take a break” it suggests to set the rate to 10. It seems to
me this could mean one of two things:

  1. The pessimistic presumptive report values will remain twice the
    "normal" rate (i.e. 10/day), so they will match the new rate, and hence I
    can ignore this goal and it will maintain the same safety buffer for the
    duration of the break.
  2. The pessimistic presumptive report values will now be 20 (twice the
    new “break” rate), which would mean it is not really a break at all.

-Brent


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Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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Ooh, this seems to be converging on something I’ve been mulling for a
long time: a generalized road dial. The current road dial let’s you do
whatever you want to the segment of the road starting at the akrasia
horizon and continuing to the goal date. The new scheduled breaks
feature lets you insert another arbitrary segment in the road (which
will be overwritten if you use the road dial again). The natural
generalization is that you can dial every upcoming segment of the road
to your heart’s delight. And maybe you can even change current and
historical segments as long as you don’t make the road any easier
within the akrasia horizon. (Ie, it could subsume Retroratchet.)

I think there will be an elegant way to do this (maybe as a premium
feature if too confusing for newbees) though it will be hard to get
the UI right. Half-baked spec at expost.padm.us/dial (Thanks so much
for the help in thinking this through!)

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Katherine Baxter
baxter.katherine@gmail.com wrote:

What about making the feature concept about “scheduling a change in
your YBR” instead of “taking a break?” For vacations and other break-y
things you can schedule a change at the beginning and another one at
the end.

If I verbally describe my weight goals right now, they look like this:

  • Weigh below W on date D, to make it in my weight class for an
    athletic competition
  • Binge to all hell on date D, probably weighing in significantly
    higher than W on date D+1
  • Maintain my weight starting around D+7

I recognize that this isn’t a typical case, but I’d love to be able to
schedule out those changes in my YBR.

I can get pretty much everything I want by just keeping my goal as
weigh W by D, succeed (I hope!), and then restart the goal around D+7
when I’m ready for a flat road. The only thing I lose is a week of
data in my graph, but I think I can manually enter those when I
restart the goal. It also means I could flake out and just never start
tracking again.

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Brent Yorgey byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

OK, makes sense. I agree that simple is better than clever. Note that I
do want to flake out on entering data—but only during my break! I guess
I will just turn off PPR and set the rate to zero then (and remember to turn
PPR back on after the break).

I think the “take a break” terminology is confusing only in this specific
case (do-less + PPR), since to me “take a break” means “I don’t have to
think about this goal during this time period”. However, I do note that
confusion aside, the feature is actually useful for more than just taking
breaks. For example, say a month from now I know I will have two days off
work and I want to spend those days baking many more cookies than usual – I
can use the “take a break” feature to set my cookie-baking YBR to be
steeper for those two days. So perhaps there is some better terminology
which says more precisely what the feature is? I don’t have any good
suggestions though. And perhaps it is fine the way it is, and you can just
let advanced users figure out such “unintended” ways to use the system.

-Brent

On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

The answer is 2, as implemented, which I think is best, for a couple
reasons:

a. It would have to be overly clever to do otherwise. “Scheduled
breaks” is really “set the YBR to a specified rate between two
arbitrary dates” so it can’t or shouldn’t presume to infer anything
about your intentions beyond the change of slope.

b. Pessimistic Presumptive Reports are specifically solving the
problem of “don’t let me flake out on entering data”. If you want to
be able to flake out on entering data, then you should turn PPR off.

Let me know if that was convincing! Also interested to hear if anyone
else was (or would’ve been) thrown by that.

Maybe the real problem here is the “take a break” terminology…

On 10 Sep 2013 08:28, “Brent Yorgey” byorgey@gmail.com wrote:

How do the two features in the subject of this email play together? Do
they? I have a do-less goal with a limit of 5 per day, with PPR turned on.
When I click “take a break” it suggests to set the rate to 10. It seems to
me this could mean one of two things:

  1. The pessimistic presumptive report values will remain twice the
    "normal" rate (i.e. 10/day), so they will match the new rate, and hence I
    can ignore this goal and it will maintain the same safety buffer for the
    duration of the break.
  2. The pessimistic presumptive report values will now be 20 (twice the
    new “break” rate), which would mean it is not really a break at all.

-Brent


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