Beeminder and Trello - Max Staleness

1

Hi guys,

I finally switched to Trello for my todo lists, and I must say it works
pretty good.

I’d like one more feature: I’d like to have a max staleness feature.

I have a High Priority Trello List. I would like to touch each item on this
list at least once in x days, so that I make a bit of progress on it
regularly.
So what I’d like to have is a way to mind the age of the oldest card in a
list.

I envision this:
Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and
make sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line
and cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at which point the next card is the oldest card.

On a larger level, this could be a way to force a weekly or monthly review
when applied to the entire board.

Does anyone have a solution for this problem already?

Reto

2

I have toyed with Beeminding Trello.

I’ve used a number of metrics, like this one. Also, rate of cards closed,
etc, etc.

Ultimately, each time, I found myself optimising for the metric in hand.
For example, only working on easy cards.

Perhaps in your instance, you will find yourself doing similar
work-avoidance things, just to keep the numbers up.

In the end, I settled on Beeminding time I spend using Trello
productively, which is working out great.

On 24 August 2013 23:07, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

Hi guys,

I finally switched to Trello for my todo lists, and I must say it works
pretty good.

I’d like one more feature: I’d like to have a max staleness feature.

I have a High Priority Trello List. I would like to touch each item on
this list at least once in x days, so that I make a bit of progress on it
regularly.
So what I’d like to have is a way to mind the age of the oldest card in a
list.

I envision this:
Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and
make sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line
and cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at which point the next card is the oldest card.

On a larger level, this could be a way to force a weekly or monthly review
when applied to the entire board.

Does anyone have a solution for this problem already?

Reto

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3

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

4

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find that
flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve got
left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since goal
started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the beeminder
items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:
Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and
make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
“Akratics Anonymous” group.
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5

@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am
unable to find it on google.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find
that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve
got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since goal
started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the beeminder
items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:
Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day. and
make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

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6

I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find that
flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve got
left until failure

Au contraire! We finally fixed that, at least for Set-A-Limit. The
reported safety buffer for a Set-A-Limit goal now assumes Pessimistic
Presumptive Reports (even if you don’t actually have those on, since
the alternative, as you’ve noticed, is an entirely meaningless safety
buffer).

I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

GmailZero with Zeno polling is working well for me these days. Any
goal that can fail without warning we should treat as a critical
Beeminder failure. Our name doesn’t rhyme with “reminder” for nothing!

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).

That much I got, but I didn’t understand how you were turning that
into like a Do More goal. The flat Set-A-Limit version still seems
more natural to me and I don’t think it has the old disadvantages any
more, other than obviating the excuse to use the word “beepoch”.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

7

It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out
there, and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them.
So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got
to work on it to make it move further back.

That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More pankajm@iitk.ac.in wrote:

@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am
unable to find it on google.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find
that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve
got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since
goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the
beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.comwrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:

Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day.
and make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

–
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups “Akratics Anonymous” group.
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8

GmailZero with Zeno polling is working well for me these days. Any

goal that can fail without warning we should treat as a critical
Beeminder failure. Our name doesn’t rhyme with “reminder” for nothing!

I’d like to ward things off a day early, if possible. But yes, this should
work, most days.

That much I got, but I didn’t understand how you were turning that

into like a Do More goal. The flat Set-A-Limit version still seems

more natural to me and I don’t think it has the old disadvantages any
more, other than obviating the excuse to use the word “beepoch”.

I’ll put together a beepoch staleness example over the next few days.

9

At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it,
I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the
akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a
beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals.
Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30
beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one
beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having
30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into
the green.

Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst
case though. I should try probably try it!

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out there,
and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them.
So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got
to work on it to make it move further back.

That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More pankajm@iitk.ac.in wrote:

@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am
unable to find it on google.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find
that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve
got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since
goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the
beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:

Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day.
and make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line
and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

–
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

10

it seems that it mitigates some of the risk of skating the edge,
however. if your nightly beemergency is to get 30 other goals back
into the green so you don’t lose the one meta goal, if you ever
really feel like screwing off, or have some other urgent sort of
thing come up, you pay one penalty on the meta goal, but are still
safe from those 30 other dooms. I guess at the very very least it is
super considerate to us, because if you have a legitimate sos-invoking
derailment we only have one goal to rerail, not 30!

Bethany

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com wrote:

At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it,
I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the
akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a
beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals.
Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30
beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one
beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having
30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into
the green.

Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst
case though. I should try probably try it!

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out there,
and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them.
So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I got
to work on it to make it move further back.

That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More pankajm@iitk.ac.in wrote:

@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am
unable to find it on google.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find
that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days I’ve
got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since
goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the
beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:

Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day.
and make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line
and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

–
http://dreev.es – search://“Daniel Reeves”
Goal tracking + Commitment contracts == http://beeminder.com

–
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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http://beeminder.com – Reminders with a sting

11

Let me clarify - there is no representation of this meta goal in a chart or
anything. It’s not actually a goal, it is just a meta behavior to keep
things from piling up all at once.

I am trying to look ahead enough to avoid having 30 emergency days all at
once.

All I am doing is look at the list in order of likely failure, and push
back the most urgent, and look ahead a bit.
I suppose everyone is doing this, really, I just called it meta minding.

I can still fail multiple things, and the meta goal (because it does not
exist as a contract) never really fails.

Reto

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Bethany M. Soule bsoule@beeminder.comwrote:

it seems that it mitigates some of the risk of skating the edge,
however. if your nightly beemergency is to get 30 other goals back
into the green so you don’t lose the one meta goal, if you ever
really feel like screwing off, or have some other urgent sort of
thing come up, you pay one penalty on the meta goal, but are still
safe from those 30 other dooms. I guess at the very very least it is
super considerate to us, because if you have a legitimate sos-invoking
derailment we only have one goal to rerail, not 30!

Bethany

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Daniel Reeves dreeves@beeminder.com
wrote:

At first I thought this was pretty brilliant but, thinking about it,
I’m not sure it would make a fundamental difference, at least in the
akratic extreme. The idea is to have a meta goal that makes it a
beemergency to not be in the green on all of your 30 other goals.
Without that meta goal, in the akratic extreme, you’d have 30
beemergencies every damn night. With the meta goal, you have one
beemergency, but, being the akratic extreme, it’s the same as having
30 because the one beemergency is to eke all 30 other goals back into
the green.

Maybe in practice it works much better than in the theoretical worst
case though. I should try probably try it!

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com wrote:

It’s just something I made up - essentially, I have some 30 goals out
there,
and I try to keep a 3 day buffer on all of them.
So, when something creeps in and starts to be more than 3 days away, I
got
to work on it to make it move further back.

That’s what I mean by meta-beeminding :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Pankaj More pankajm@iitk.ac.in
wrote:

@Reto, could you briefly explain about your meta-beeminding goal? I am
unable to find it on google.

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Reto Stamm reto@retostamm.com
wrote:

Daniel, I can see that this could be done with a flat road, but I find
that flat roads like a key feature: They never tell me how many days
I’ve
got left until failure, and that’s a feature that I use a lot for
meta-beeminding - it helps me see things coming a few days ahead of
time.
I came up with this because the “Gmail 0” goal is just failing without
warning when it’s flatlined, and that’s not working well for me.

Beepoch is a play on words on the Unix Epoch (seconds since 1/1/1970).
An alternate timeline, moving at the same speed with an offset should
be
fine.
A graph where y is number of days, and the yellow road is “days since
goal started + 3” (the Beepoch, maybe?), and the “oldest message
today” is
todays datapoint.

Having a “maximum creation date allowed in the inbox” allows the
beeminder items to be properly sorted by urgency with the other ones.

Anyways, gotta do a few things before midnight :slight_smile:

Reto

On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Daniel Reeves <dreeves@beeminder.com

wrote:

Reto, I like your idea of beeminding max staleness. I also love the
word “beepoch” but I’m not sure I understand that part.
I feel like the natural way to beemind this is with a Set-A-Limit
goal
with a flat road at, say, 30.
Then each (auto-entered) datapoint is the staleness, in days, of the
stalest Trello card (or inbox thread or whatever).
Voila, you’ve guaranteed that nothing ever gets more than 30 days
old.
I guess that’s your point with enforcing monthly review, GTD-style.

Relatedly, Trello’s new card aging feature is pretty slick:

Introducing Power-Ups: Calendar, Card Aging, and More

Set a “Days since the Beepoch” graph, that goes up one day per day.
and make
sure the graph is 3 days ahead. The oldest card will be a flat line
and
cross the yellow brick road if I do not add a comment to it or
something, at
which point the next card is the oldest card.

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